Genealogical Journey: Charles and Helena O'Regan

Relationship Summary
Lagoy, Michele Ann's great great grandmother is Sullivan, Elizabeth Regan 

Sullivan, Elizabeth Regan 1830 - 1899 Sullivan, Charles Joseph 1856 - 1902 Sullivan, Mary Bernadette 1896 - 1964 Lagoy, William Paul, Jr Lagoy, Michele Ann

Details:

Lagoy, Michele Ann's father's mother's father's mother is Sullivan, Elizabeth Regan

Names:

Lagoy, Michele Ann father Lagoy, William Paul, Jr mother Sullivan, Mary Bernadettefather Sullivan, Charles Joseph mother Sullivan, Elizabeth Regan

A presenter of an Academy Award could not have had as much anticipation as I did when I opened the envelope from the New York City Municipal Archives.  It contained my great-great-grandmother's death certificate.  I suspected that names for Elizabeth Sullivan's parents would be listed and accurate.  She, her husband Denis, and their children, including my great-grandfather, Charles, returned to Ireland for eleven years (1857-1868).  During that time,  I believed they learned the names of their grandparents, or even met them.   That information was provided on their mother's death certificate.  Elizabeth's father was listed as Charles O'Reagan.  It would seem that my great-grandfather Charles, was named after his maternal grandfather.  That made sense.  Elizabeth's mother's name was listed as Lena Cornwall.  And shock of shocks, it said she was born in Nova Scotia!  It would seem that Drew's grandmother, Helena, was named after her maternal grandmother. Again, that made sense.  It seemed that I had found the names of my three times great-grandparents--on an Irish maternal line, most difficult to research but I did break through the brick wall.

The envelope please!  Envelope containing the death certificate of my great-great-grandmother.

Death certificate for Elizabeth O'Sullivan listing her parents.  

The name Charles O'Regan gave me too many hits on the Ancestry and Family Search websites.  I couldn't definitively say which one was my ancestor.  The name Lena Cornwall was another matter.  I received one hit immediately on Ancestry.  It was for an Anglican church transcript in Acadie, Nova Scotia, Canada.  Helena Sophia Cornwall was baptized in 1792.  I went through great pains to find the rare book cited as the source, Gravestones of Acadie , written in 1929.  The online booksellers at the time of my discovery had it listed for hundreds of dollars.  For that price, I would rather go to Canada myself.  Luckily, I was able to borrow the book from the World Catalog System which accesses universities as well as public libraries.  There was only one copy available in all of San Diego County.  It was a short term loan with a HUGE penalty for returning it late.  I also had to leave the note attached to the book that said I had to hand it to a librarian, not leave it in a drop box.  I guarded that book with my life.  Unfortunately, the book gave no further information about Helena Sophia Cornwall.  I was sure her story was an interesting one; how did someone born in Canada end up in Ireland?  I set out to connect her to Charles O'Regan in Ireland.

Because of the difficulty in researching Irish ancestors prior to 1850, I was left with seeking private family trees. ( For a complete explanation, go to  http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com by Claire Santry.)  I had to join as many online genealogy groups that I could in hopes of finding out more. One of my Facebook genealogy groups yielded assistance.  Once again, the kindness of strangers prevailed. Frank started a genealogy group that meets once a month in West County Cork, Ireland.  I obviously couldn't attend the meetings living in San Diego, but my questions and information were presented to the group whose goal is to help each other with West Cork genealogy.    Here is an edited email exchange between Frank and me that put Charles and Helena O'Regan together:

Hi Michele,

There is a listing and photos of known graves at Aughadown Upper and Lower Graveyards at http://www.graveyards.skibbheritage.com/Search.aspx

This graveyard is located approx half way to Ballydehob and is immediately beside the Ilen River. I hope this of use to you but I fear not.

Le chéile, is féidir linn (Together, We Can)

Kind regards,

Frank 

Mayor, Skibbereen Town Council 2011 -  2012

Strategic Policy. Environment & Emergency Dept Cork Co. Council 2009 - 2014

Founding Chairman, WestCork SOS Ambulance Campaign

Founding Chairman, RIPPLE Skibbereen. (Retd)

Hi Frank,

Thank you so much for the list of grave yards in West Cork.  No need to fear not, because I think I might have found my great-great-great-grandparents' grave at the Caheragh Old Grave Yard per your link!  I made a memorial for Charles O'Regan at my find a grave account and requested a photo of the stone.  I appreciate the efforts of the Skibbereen Heritage Center for surveying the burial ground, but I need a clearer photo of the headstone to see if I can decipher the engraving.  I copied and pasted the inscription here: 

Inscription: 

ERECTED BY 
CHA. O'REGAN
TO THE MEMORY OF 
HIS WIFE ?
CHA. O'REGAN ESQ
?
WHO DIED JUNE 20 ?
AGED 52 YEARS
AND ALSO
TO HIS BROTHER
REVEREND JAMES O'REGAN
WHO DIED ?
?
?
IN LOVING MEMORY OF 
MRS HELEN S O'REGAN
COULAGH COTTAGE
WHO DIED FEB 12 1871
AGED 73 YEARS
CHARLES O'REGAN
COULAGH COTTAGE
DIED JANY 26th 1871 aged 77 years
AND
DENIS Mc CARTHY ESQ J.P.
DIED JANY 21st 1881
AGED 50 YEARS
R. I. P. 

I am wondering if "MRS HELEN S O'REGAN"  is actually "HELENA".  Also if the death of CHARLES O'REGAN is in 1873, not 1871.  The Civil Registration records have a Charles O'Regan in 1873 but none in 1871.  Also puzzling, if it is talking about the same two people, the first part of the inscription reads "TO THE MEMORY OF HIS WIFE" but the dates listed below have the husband dying first so it makes no sense.  I have no idea how or if Denis MCarthy is related to the others on the inscription.  If he was Helen's brother, this is not my family because my Helena's maiden name was Cornwall.  

  

Michele

descendant of the O'Sullivans and O'Regans

Hi Michele,

Attached above are two photos of the Tombstone inscription at Caheragh.

I must say that your quest for Charles and Helena has become mine over the past weeks and I have spent a great deal of time chasing information and have finally come up with positive information from the grave stone at Caheragh.

I visited there in the past days and photographed the inscription and have gleaned a lot of positive information from it. According to the version of the inscription in the Graveyard website the inscription reads:

ERECTED BY 
CHA. O'REGAN
TO THE MEMORY OF 
HIS WIFE ?
CHA. O'REGAN ESQ
?
WHO DIED JUNE 20 ?
AGED 52 YEARS
AND ALSO
TO HIS BROTHER
REVEREND JAMES O'REGAN
WHO DIED ?
?
?
IN LOVING MEMORY OF 
MRS HELENA S O'REGAN
COULAGH COTTAGE
WHO DIED FEB 12 1871
AGED 73 YEARS
CHARLES O'REGAN
COULAGH COTTAGE
DIED JANY 26th 1873 aged 77 years
AND
DENIS Mc CARTHY ESQ J.P.
DIED JANY 21st 1881
AGED 50 YEARS
R. I. P.

I am reproducing this same inscription below with verified corrections made:

ERECTED BY 
CHA. O'REGAN
TO THE MEMORY OF 
HIS affectionate Father
CHA. O'REGAN ESQOf Butlersgift
WHO DIED JUNE 30 1811
AGED 52 YEARS
AND ALSO
HIS much esteemed BROTHER
REVEREND JAMES O'REGAN
WHO DIED  Oct 22 1854
Aged 81 years

Requiescat in Pace

IN LOVING MEMORY OF 
                                                           MRS HELENA S O'REGAN   (confirmed to be Helena S O’Regan)( no “rs” after the “M”
                                                      COULAGH COTTAGE     Clearly spelled Coulagh Cottage
WHO DIED FEB 12 1871
AGED 73 YEARS
CHARLES O'REGAN
COULAGH COTTAGE
DIED JANY 26th 1873 aged 77 years
AND
DENIS Mc CARTHY ESQ J.P.
DIED JANY 21st 1881
AGED 50 YEARS
R. I. P.

I don’t know the reason for the M before Helena’s name but there is no trace of the “rs” of Mrs as quoted on original interpretation. Just to reiterate, Helena is Latin for Helen or Ellen and is the official name used in Baptismal Registers of the era. I don’t know who the Denis McCarthy is but I will keep an eye open for his name in  the future. The JP after his name is for Justice of the Peace and may help to trace him and his relationship to the O’Regan’s later. If you think it would be any advantage for us to talk, if you want to let me have a phone number, I can give you a call some time as I have free calls to the States.

For the moment, that all and I hope it helps clarify things for you. It seems you have gained the name of your G.G.G.G Grandfather as he is the Charles at the top of the Inscription. Enjoy the new knowledge.

Inscription of the grave stone for Charles and Helena O'Regan, possibly my ancestors.  Photo credit:  Frank Fahy

Wow! I hoped the Helena and Charles O'Regan Frank found were my ancestors but after googling Coolagh Cottage, I doubted it.  Also, there is no way to know Helena's maiden name by the inscription, but at the same time, I could not rule this out.  

Coolagh Cottage near Ballydehob, West County Cork, Ireland. Source:  http://www.buildingsofireland.ie

  

Genealogical Journey: Surprises Kept Me Searching

The ancestors are always teasing me:  pack of napkins I found in a grocery store parking lot.  Photo credit:  Michele Lagoy

Great-great-grandma Elizabeth Sullivan was buried in her son James' ( 1853-1907) family plot.  James was my great-grandfather Charles' brother.  The strategy of researching my ancestor's siblings was paying off in spades.  Not only was I meeting more relatives, I was finding ancestors.  St. Peter's Cemetery in Staten Island, NY had my great-great-grandmother listed as Elizabeth O'Sullivan in their records.  Via the Emigrant Savings Bank records, I had previously learned that her maiden name was O'Regan.  Our ancestors had a bank account but I haven't found the money yet, so calm down family. With the date of the burial information from the cemetery, I could narrow down a search for her death record in the New York City death certificate database.  One result came up for an Elizabeth O'Sullivan who died in November of 1899. The luck of the Irish struck again!  I ordered a copy of her death certificate and impatiently waited for it to arrive.

Relationship Summary Lagoy, Michele Ann's grandmother's uncle is Sullivan, James S. Sullivan, Denis 1815 - 1880 Elizabeth Sullivan (1826-1899) was married to Denis Sullivan  and is my great-great-grandmother Sullivan, Charles Joseph 1856 - 1902 Sullivan, James S. b.1853 Sullivan, Mary Bernadette 1896 - 1964 Lagoy, William Paul, Jr Lagoy, Michele Ann Details: Lagoy, Michele Ann's father's mother's father's brother is Sullivan, James S. Names:  Lagoy, Michele Ann father Lagoy, William Paul, Jr mother Sullivan, Mary Bernadettefather Sullivan, Charles Joseph brother Sullivan, James S.

In the meantime, I put in a request on the Find A Grave website to have the headstone photographed. I was not impatient about getting this photograph because I knew I would eventually get back to Staten Island myself, or ask my cousins to photograph it during one of their visits to the cemetery.  
( By that time, my second cousin Charles, who goes by Tim, had moved from across the street from the cemetery or I would have asked him to photograph it.)  Find A Grave had an event that they called Community Days. It consisted of asking people to fulfill photo requests made to the site by going to cemeteries and photographing headstones with the information provided by the requester. Christine answered the request that I had posted.  Once again, the kindness of strangers prevailed. Christine lived in the vicinity of the cemetery and regularly walked her dog there.  This was her fist time fulfilling a photo request on Find A Grave and I was glad that she chose mine.  ( The ancestors must like Christine and her dog. )  She initially had some trouble locating the headstone as each section of the cemetery was not clearly marked and the cemetery office that might have been able to help, was closed on the weekend.  A flurry of email exchanges between us finally got her there.  I figured the grave was near Section XX where my great-grandparents were buried, so I advised her to use the Clove Road entrance where the words "Saint Peter's Cemetery 1848" were written on a stone pillar.  I suggested she check near the lake for Section 33, for which there was no signage.  Arliene Sullivan, Jack's wife, was interred there four months earlier so I suggested she look for grass that was not as grown in as much as on the other plots.  That did the trick!  Racing to get back to the cemetery before night fall, Christine took several photographs of the main headstone and the two adjoining ones.  I emailed the photos to Cousin Bill and he sent her a thank you email as well.  I had found a great-great-grandparent's grave that led me to a death certificate that I hoped would provide me with the names of yet another generation of ancestors.

Grave stone of my Great-great-grandmother Elizabeth O'Sullivan and her son James' descendants and their spouses.  Photo credit:  Christine B. as part of Find A Grave's Community Day

Genealogical Journey: Staten Island, Sullivan's and Saint Peter's

Relationship Summary
Lagoy, Michele Ann's father's second cousin is Sullivan, Carolyn

Sullivan, Denis 1815 - 1880   Sullivan, Charles Joseph 1856 - 1902   Sullivan, James S. b.1853   Sullivan, Mary Bernadette 1896 - 1964   Sullivan, Joseph Francis 1897 - 1971   Lagoy, William Paul, Jr   Sullivan, Carolyn 1937 - 2011     Lagoy, Michele Ann

The above relationship chart shows Michele's relationship to Carolyn Sullivan.  Our common ancestor is Denis Sullivan.

Details:

Lagoy, Michele Ann's father's mother's father's brother's son's daughter is Sullivan, Carolyn

Thanks to Beatrice Sullivan's obituary, I had eleven living relatives to contact on the James S. Sullivan line of the family.  Eleven!  All I needed was for one of them to be willing to talk to me.  I started looking up names and phone numbers in the white pages online.  Some of the names didn't have phone numbers listed.  One person didn't return my call, but I had many names to contact.  I was drawn to the name Angelique Phyllis Sullivan.  ( It was on a public record I had found; see previous blog post.)  Her mother Beatrice's obituary gave Angelique's married name and the New Jersey township where she currently lived.  That information led me to her phone number.  I called it leaving the message I had honed stating who I was, that I was seeking genealogy information as I believed we were related.  After several rounds of phone tag, we spoke.  I believe she left me two messages before I could get back to her.  She seemed eager to talk to me and I soon learned why.  She was a foster child of the Sullivan's who came into their home when she was 18 months old.  At some point, she started using "Sullivan" as her last name until she married.  She was eager to contact me because she heard that a biological sister lived out West and her name started with an "M."  So a "Michele" calling out of the blue from California saying we were related, piqued her interest.  I was sorry to inform her that I was not a close biological relative but she confirmed that my research had yielded the right Sullivan family.

Relationship chart showing Annie and I are third cousins.  Our ancestor in common is Denis Sullivan.

Sullivan, Denis 1815 - 1880   Sullivan, Charles Joseph 1856 - 1902   Sullivan, James S. b.1853   Sullivan, Mary Bernadette 1896 - 1964   Sullivan, Joseph Francis 1897 - 1971   Lagoy, William Paul, Jr   Sullivan, Joseph James, Jr. 1925 - 1990   Lagoy, Michele Ann   Reedy, Angelique

Details:

Lagoy, Michele Ann's father's mother's father's brother's son's son's daughter is Reedy, Angelique

Names:

Lagoy, Michele Ann father Lagoy, William Paul, Jr mother Sullivan, Mary Bernadettefather Sullivan, Charles Joseph brother Sullivan, James S. son Sullivan, Joseph Francisson Sullivan, Joseph James, Jr. daughter Reedy, Angelique

We talked about Staten Island.  She grew up there and having already located me on Facebook, saw the photos I had of the Lyons' pool.  She and her siblings swam there as children but never knew the pool was named after a mutual relative, Joseph H. Lyons.

We discussed her Aunt Carolyn and her Uncle Jack's family.  Annie, as Angelique is called, told me that her late Uncle Jack had two married daughters whose names she gave me.  That was another reason I had trouble tracing this family branch; Jack only had daughters whose last names changed upon marriage.  According to Facebook photos, they are fair skinned with blue eyes like many of the Sullivan descendants.  They look more like my Dad than I do!  They reside on Staten Island to this day.  Annie told me that her Cousin Karen might have some of their Aunt Carolyn's family history notes as Carolyn knew a lot about the family.  Contacting her is on my genealogy to do list.

Here is what I do know about their Aunt Carolyn strictly through genealogy research.  Carolyn Sullivan (1937-2011) was the Carol Ann Sullivan listed on the 1940 census I located.  Note to self: learn about Soundex.  That would have saved me hours of fruitless research time looking for a Carol Ann Sullivan.  I discounted all records of Carolyn Sullivan because of that mistake on the census!
Carolyn never married so there was no record of marriage for her.   I even paid the City of New York to conduct a record search hoping to find a married surname that I could trace.  I missed her in the Social Security Death Index because I insisted on looking for a Carol Ann Sullivan and stopped searching each time the records showed a Carolyn.  (Ironically, Carolyn spent decades working at the Social Security Administration.)  For some reason, I kept looking for her even though female relatives are harder to trace.  It turned out she had something to tell me about the ancestors.  Eerily, I pictured her in a wheelchair talking about her knowledge of the family.  Annie told me at the end of her life, Carolyn fell on some icy steps and was wheelchair bound after that.   I searched for her obituary online where I found what she wanted me to know.  Carolyn was buried in the family plot located in St. Peter's Cemetery in Staten Island, NY.  A light bulb went off in my head and I called the cemetery to inquire about the location of the plot.  I was told there were ten other people in that plot besides Carolyn!  The list of names included Carolyn's parents, grandparents, a child named George who died as an infant, and my ancestor:  Elizabeth O'Sullivan who I learned died in November of 1899.  My great-great-grandmother was buried with my great-grandfather's brother's family, a few rows from our family plot.  Thanks Carolyn!

1940 US Census showing Carol Ann ( Carolyn)  Sullivan living with her family on Markham Place in Staten Island.  Notice the family paid $40 a month in rent and Joseph made $2100 a year as a letter carrier for the Post Office.  

Obituary for Carolyn A. Sullivan

AGE: 74 • Wall, New Jersey

Carolyn A. Sullivan, 74, of Wall, passed away on Thursday, July 7, 2011, at Care One, Wall. Born in Staten Island, N.Y., she lived in Plainfield and Brick prior to moving to Wall five years ago. She was a case worker for the Social Security Administration in Plainfield for 30 years before retiring in 1998. She was a parishioner of St. Dominic Church, Brick.

Carolyn was predeceased by her parents, Joseph and Alma Sullivan; and two brothers, Joseph Sullivan and John Sullivan. She is survived by several nieces and nephews, grandnieces and nephews; two sisters-in-law, Arliene Sullivan of Staten Island, and Beatrice Sullivan of Lakewood. Also survived by great-grandnieces and nephews.

Visiting hours are from 2 to 4 p.m. and 7 to 9 p.m. Sunday, July 10 at Colonial Funeral Home, 2170 Highway 88, Brick. A Mass of Christian Burial will be offered at 9 a.m. Monday, July 11 at St. Dominic Church, Brick, followed by interment at St. Peter Cemetery, Staten Island.

Published in Asbury Park Press on July 8, 2011 - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/app/obituary.aspx?n=Carolyn-A-Sullivan&pid=152419742#sthash.E9drYtPy.dpuf

Genealogical Journey: Finding My First John Smith aka James Sullivan

One thing led to another.  Having tracked down two of my great-grandfather's siblings' descendants, I was left with the task of finding the remaining two.  (Old Uncle George had no descendants, having had his heart broken, he ran off and joined the Circus as previously mentioned.)  I decided to take a look at finding living descendants of great-grandpa's brother named James Sullivan (1853-1906).  I might as well look for the genealogical equivalent of a needle in a hay stack: John Smith.

Old Uncle George Sullivan about 1915, Staten Island.  ( Courtesy of Drew Van Winkle)  

Agnes Lyons Van Winkle,, with Old Uncle George Sullivan.  ( From the private collection of Drew Van Winkle.)

Utilizing the research techniques that served me well thus far, I searched census forms for Staten Island.  I quickly learned that James S. Sullivan was married to a woman named Julia, and their children were named:  James A., Anna Maria, and Joseph Francis Sullivan.  Those names matched Bill's dad's notes.  More John Smiths to trace, but I had three leads.  At some point I learned that James A. and Anna married but had no children.  To further confuse me, James A. married a woman named Helen whose maiden and married names were both Sullivan.  I wondered if she had to officially change her name.

My hopes of finding living relatives from this branch of the family all rested on a man named Joseph Francis Sullivan.  Via the draft records for both World Wars, I learned that he had blue or grey eyes, a ruddy complexion and worked for the Post Office.  His physical description was keeping in line with most of the Sullivan men, including my dad.  I realized from this form that the letters "P" and "O" next to his name stood for Post Office on Cousin Bill's dad's notes!  (Cousin Bill's dad was also named James Sullivan and also worked for the Post Office.  Perhaps he and Joseph had met there, and sharing the same job, last name and probably looks, struck up a conversation about how they might be related.)

Family tree notes showing descendants of James Sullivan.  Note my grandparents' names William Lagoy and Mary Sullivan.

Above notes credited to James J. Sullivan, Cousin Bill's dad who gave me these invaluable notes. 

The 1940 census showed Joseph Sullivan married to a woman named Alma and their children were listed as Joseph Jr,, John and Carol Ann.

1940 Census showing the family of Joseph and Alma Sullivan on Staten Island.  It was their descendants I was seeking.  Source:  1940 US Census from the Family Search website

I was stuck at this information for a long time and unable to make headway with those names.  More John Smiths.  Then one day, the genealogy gods were with me or Joseph wanted me to find his family.  On the Family Search website, I came across an unlikely record that I thought had no business being online but it was classified as a public record. It stated that Joseph F. Sullivan, aka Joseph James Sullivan and a date of birth of 27 May 1925.  This too, was another stroke of luck.  On the 1925 New York State Census, taken on June 1, 1925, Joseph was listed as five days old, thus I was able to hone in on his date of birth as his age was only days old at the time the census was taken.  I now had a name, a date of birth, and an address from the aforementioned draft card that all matched.  I was getting somewhere.  The bottom of the public record listed possible relatives:  Angelique Phyllis, Beatrice M. and Margaret E. Sullivan.  Finally, there were some names I could leverage and match up with Joseph Sullivan.  Before I tell you the rest of the story, let me remind you about the Clay boys who were put into an orphanage. ( See the three previous blog posts titled "The Cryne Line").  Now let me balance the family tree by showing you the obituary of Joseph's wife Beatrice Sullivan (1927-2013).

Beatrice M. Sullivan (2013) 

AGE: 86 • Brick, New Jersey

Beatrice M. (Schine) Sullivan, also known as "Bea" "BB" "Grandma B" and "Mom," 86, of Brick, died Saturday, July 27, 2013, at Meridian Nursing and Rehabilitation Center in Brick. She was born and raised in Staten Island and lived there for 60 years before moving to Brick in 1986. She was a graduate of Port Richmond High School in Staten Island. In her younger years, she enjoyed spending her summers in Highlands, NC and loved reunion trips back to Highlands. She was a parishioner of the Church of the Epiphany in Brick where she taught CCD classes. She was a member and past president of Mater Dei Chapter of the New York Foundling Hospital Center for Development of Children. She was honored by Cardinal Cook for her work in finding homes for children, many of whom were taken in at her home. She was also honored as a Foster Parent of the Year. She loved bowling and was a member of the Columbettes Bowling League and was a member of the Music Club and Italian American Club at the Original Leisure Village in Lakewood.

She was predeceased by her beloved husband of 44 years, Joseph J. Sullivan in 1990. She is survived by 11 children, Barbara Tunnington and her husband, Tom of Brick, Margaret Territo of Manchester, Joseph Sullivan and his wife, Karen of Parlin, Robin Bisogna and her partner, Audie Parker of Staten Island, Catherine Regan of Yorktown, TX, Angelique Reedy and her husband, Ron of Brick, Ginny Romo of Columbus, GA, Azealia Caceres of Philadelphia, PA, Tommy Wong and his wife, Sherry of Utica, NY, Daniel Lenier of Montgomery, AL and Jackie Andujar of Staten Island; 22 grandchildren, 17 great-grandchildren; and several nieces & nephews. - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/app/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=166112480#sthash.DsvIsZfr.dpuf

Genealogical Journey: The Cryne Line Part 3: The Fine Cryne LIne

The Cryne family members I was in touch with didn't seem to know about my branch of the family, so maybe nobody in mine knew about Catherine Cyrne's youngest three boys being placed in an orphanage. Cousin Carol confirmed the name of the orphanage to be what is now called Mount Loretto.  I perused my grandmother's address book.  An address listed for Great-aunt Margaret read "Mission of the Immaculate Virgin, Mount Loretto, Staten Island, NY.  Dietary Department Boys." This was not written in the address book, it was from a pre-printed address label torn from an envelope and scotch taped into her address book.  As there was no zip code in the address, it was put in there prior to 1963. Cousin Bill confirmed that Great-aunt Margaret did indeed work at Mount Loretto and even resided there in her retirement years.

Address in my grandmother's handwriting for her sister Margaret at Mount Loretto on Staten Island

Okay, so that was reference to evidence that her cousin Catherine's sons were there at possibly the same time Great-aunt Margaret worked there.  The Clay boys were there from the late 1920's to the mid-1930's.  I found Frank, Raymond and Joseph Clay, Carol's father, listed there on the 1930 census.  However, Great-aunt Margaret was listed as a chambermaid at Bellevue Hospital, also living there. in 1930.  Aunt Peggy told me that Great-aunt Margaret did work at Bellevue for a while, and as she does not appear on the census in Staten Island in 1930, that must be her.  So perhaps she didn't know about the Clay boys and got that job at Mount Loretto after the Clay boys left.  I found Great-aunt Margaret still at Bellevue on the 1940 census which asked where you were five years ago. She answered, "same place." so didn't encounter the Clay boys at Mount Loretto in the 1930's.   But why did I still feel that the family knew about the Clay boys?

Reviewing Julia's family tree on Ancestry again, I noticed something I had not seen the other times I had looked at it.  Read much?  One of Catherine's sons with the last name Cyrne had a baptismal certificate that referenced "Helen Lyons" as a sponsor.  The link said to email the author to see a copy of it.  I was willing to bet that the certificate read "Helena"not Helen.  Helena was the baby's great-aunt and Cousin Drew's grandmother.  I didn't expect a response from this email address because it contained the word "bogus" in the address.  Happily, I was wrong.  Julia emailed me back right away and sent me a copy of the baptismal certificate.  It read "Helena Lyons" as I predicted.  More reference to evidence that the family possibly knew about Catherine's youngest sons.  Below is Julia's email to me.  The Cyrne line is fine.

Michele,

I have asked my family for a copy of the certificate, and I will send it to you.  You should know that there is some confusion between the birth certificate and baptism:  the dates of birth don't match, and one shows him as older than the other.  We believe the baptism certificate is more likely accurate, as the birth certificate wasn't filed for a few years afterwards, and the family were strict Catholics and would have had him baptized quickly.  

He is a remarkable man.  His life is quite a story, and I hope to post it sometime on Ancestry to keep the story alive. We also have a copy of his passport, when he went to Japan right after WWII for business, along with some other info.  He also enlisted in the US Marines at 17, fought in Central America, was wounded, worked for the Irish mob during prohibition, lost all his savings in the crash, started a steel company and remade himself from scratch.  

I would love to have the photograph that you mentioned.  It would be nice for my family to see my grandfather's mother.  She had a rough life after her first husband died.  All we know is that she remarried an abusive man and was fairly unhappy with her life.  

Julia

I was happy to provide Julia a photograph of her great-grandmother.  I also encouraged her to expand Joe Cryne's story as I, for one, would love to know more about this relative.

Michael Joseph ( Joe ) Cyrne's baptismal certificate showing Helena Lyons as his sponsor.  Courtesy of Julia Cyrne.  

Genealogical Journey: The Cyrne Line Part 2: The end of the line?

I found someone else also posted a family tree on Ancestry listing Catherine Cryne as an ancestor. Catherine was married twice and this tree was for her and her first husband Michael's descendants.  Ancestry does not give names of living relatives listed on the tree for privacy reasons.  (They probably had people like me in mind when they did that.)  Not seeing any other way to contact the tree's author, I wrote a message in the comment section of the page.  The tree didn't go beyond Catherine's parents ( Michael & Elizabeth Rogers) so I was not hopeful that she knew about any more ancestors than what I had learned. We all seemed to be "stuck" at Denis and Elizabeth Sullivan or their children, as was the case with this branch of the family tree.  This tree did cite that same 1900 census listing Catherine and her three siblings: George, Anna and Lizzie.  Maybe the author was certain that Catherine's mother was Elizabeth Sullivan Rogers.  Maybe she knew more about her grandmother's siblings.  As I studied the tree and the attached cited information, I hoped that Julia, the author would email me back quickly like Carol had.  That didn't happen.  Carol had left a message in the comment box as well.

From time to time, I would check Julia's tree hoping my question was answered in the comment section.  One time I notice that one of the names on the tree was no longer. private.  So I looked for an obituary and hit pay dirt again.  As always, I was happy to find more relatives but sad to see that someone had passed on.  This time it was Bernice's husband.  Bernice's father was Catherine's son. Catherine was her grandmother.  I found her living in New Jersey so I called her.  She said that Julia, the Ancestry family tree author was her niece, her brother's daughter.  I had a wonderful chat with Bernice; she told me to call her Penny.  When I asked why, she said as a little girl she attended Girl Scout Camp where everyone had to pick a nickname.  She didn't want to be called the obvious, Bernie, because there was a mean kid on her block named that and she didn't want to be reminded of him.  So she picked Penny and it stuck.  Penny didn't have Julia's contact information, did not use a computer and was only "a little" interested in genealogy.  Her son didn't accept my friend request on Facebook.  I thought I was at the end of the Cryne line.

By this time, Cousin Bob had come through for me and located a photo of Catherine Rogers Cryne Clay, his grandfather's sister.  This photo cemented it for me that Catherine was a member of our family.  Bob's email mentioned his mother's recollection of Catherine and two of her son's as well.

Kitty Rogers ( Courtesy of Bob Rogers)

I was still curious if other branches of the family, mostly mine, who resided on Staten Island knew of Catherine's youngest sons being placed in an Orphanage there.  Why would they go from Islip on Long Island to Staten Island?  I had this nagging feeling that knew but no proof until...